Episode 2: The Art of the Buddy System with Aliza Richman and Deann Garcia: The Big Lonely

In Episode 2, Karey sits down with her two besties, Aliza Richman and Deann Garcia from Oregon who are adventurer extraordinaires.  They took on The Big Lonely adventure race as a duo in 2023 to really test their fitness, fortitude and friendship.  They passed with flying colors and lived to tell the tale.

Join them as they cover:
- How they trained for the race
- What they ate during the race
- Racing vs. touring
- What happened to their bodies during the ride
- Did they pass the test as adventure buddies????  

If you've ever been wondering what it is like to race a multi-day self-supported adventure race, or are looking for tips for your next big adventure, then this episode is for you! 

Also, check out this video of the Big Lonely from 2020: 
https://youtu.be/eFJlwjeUHhE?si=8S2XrnhLjmHYG84Y

Big Lonely Race Website: https://www.nwcompetitive.com/events/biglonely/

Transcript

Hey you and welcome to The Art of Type 2 Fun adventure podcast! Welcome back to those who are here for more and welcome to those who are joining for the first time. Make sure to subscribe and share with your other adventure buddies,  especially your adventure-curious friends who might need that extra little nudge to get out there. 

It's fun to share all these things, especially type two fun, with more friends, so spread the love.  I am very excited for what we have to talk about this week because you are going to hear about some true suffering stories from two of my very best adventure buddies and longtime friends, Aliza Richman and Deann Garcia.

They'll be recapping their first attempt at a bikepacking race, which they chose to be the Big Lonely, which is in Bend, Oregon. Now, just a little background. The Big Lonely is an unsupported bike packing adventure, which is in a grand depart format, similar to that of the Great Divide and kind of all these other adventure rides/timed rides that are technically a race, but maybe unsanctioned. 

So as I mentioned, the route starts and ends in Bend, Oregon. It's been around at least since 2020 and continues to grow. The race historically has been held in October, which is just before snowfall. I think it's generally good weather around that time, but can get pretty chilly. And as it happened this year, the week following the race there actually was snowfall on the course. So they got it done just in time. The route consists of more than 350 miles and over around 25,000 feet of elevation gain, so pretty significant. It passes through the small towns of Sisters and Prineville, so there are a few restock points, but other than that, it's pretty much in the middle of nowhere, Oregon. The terrain is a mix of 30% single track, 50% gravel or double track, some of which I heard was really bumpy and 20% paved scenic bike. 

You can follow the link in the podcast notes to learn more about the route, including a documentary that I really enjoyed and watched when I first heard about the Big Lonely that was made from the 2020 version of the race. 

 Aliza and Deann, who you'll be hearing from, have been my friends,  teammates, adventure buddies, partners in crime for over 10 years, so we've gone through a lot together. We have seen each other grow as outdoor enthusiasts, bike racers, and then life in general. And over that time, I'm always in awe of the awesome things they continue to accomplish in life.  As well as having, having often major FOMO for the things they're doing adventure wise, because we don't get to do everything together anymore since we don't live in the same state. 

I moved to Arizona about four years ago and they still live in Oregon, so they get to do all the things together, but I get to do my own thing here in Arizona with my crew here, which I'm not complaining about. I'm just saying sometimes I get the Oregon FOMO.  

So…when I say that the Big Lonely was Deann and Aliza’s first adventure race, this does not mean in any way, shape or form that they are not experienced backcountry explorers.

They have completed multiple tracks by bike and by foot, including the John Muir Trail, Oregon Outback, Oregon Timber Trail, parts of the Great Divide, Baja Divide and the Annapurna circuit in Nepal. Anyway, enough about them. I'm sure you'll learn more about them in the episodes to come if you keep listening to this podcast as well, because they have so much wisdom and lasts to offer.

And with that, let's see what they learned about The Art of Type 2 Fun -  Buddy Style on their first bike tracking race on the Big Lonely. 

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Karey: 

We are here today talking about the Pacific Northwest adventure ride/race, which is called the Big Lonely. So we'll hear more from them, but Deanne or Aliza, whoever wants to go first, say a little bit about yourself.  

Deann: 

Hi, I'm Deann.  Karey, I think we've known each other for like, 12 or 13 years now.

Karey: 

I think that's right. 

Deann: 

And, yeah, we've been riding bikes with each other for most of that time. And I think that, actually, you sort of got me into this whole debacle with your experience on the Great Divide, then that kind of got the rest into this as well. I'm also a graphic designer and sometimes I teach college design and things like that.

But yeah, mountain biking is my jam. We used to race on the road together. We used to do crit racing and stage racing and stuff, and Karey was the director of our race.  And then Aliza went and had a bad crash that demoralized everybody and got everyone turned off to the road.  It's great for everybody because now we're all mountain bikers, which is way better. 

Karey: 

Exactly.  

Aliza:

All right, well, I'm Aliza. I'm the scapegoat, why everyone left road racing, apparently.  I've always been athletic. In college, I was on the rowing team. When I turned 30, my knee started going bad. It developed some pretty severe arthritis, which is why I started biking. And so through my PT and Anna Vaughan, I got connected to Karey's team, West Coast Women's Cycling. 

And I had a very extensive one year road racing career. It was fun until it ended in a broken pelvis doing a criterium.  I now have two plates and ten pins in my pelvis, and during that process, too, my knee degenerated worse, which is why I got more and more into biking and more into mountain biking and dirt riding versus road riding, because it was, in my opinion, a little bit safer and a lot more fun. 

And then I started bikepacking as a result of that, because it kind of combined. Backpacking and biking. And my first bikepacking trip was with Karey. We did the first section of the Great Divide Mountain biking route from Banff to Whitefish. And Karey, you know, carried on all the way to Colorado, but I was kind of hooked after that. 

Karey: 

Deann, tell us a little bit more about your athletic experience.

Deann:

I was a swimmer growing up, and I swam in college, but then I hurt my shoulders, which, later I found out, was a result of the fact that I have Ehlers Danlos hypermobility disorder. And that weighs into my story as well, because I ended up tearing my  ACL four times over the years and so my knee also degenerated rapidly in my late 30’s Similar to Aliza's. So that is how me and Aliza became Team Total Knee for Speed, because both of us ended up having to have total knee replacements right after our 40th birthdays. 

Within a month of each other we had our knee replacements  And so we did the Big Lonely basically a year and a half after having a total knee replacement.

Karey:

Which is pretty amazing to be able to come back from that. And a lot of work was had by both of you, you know, getting ready for this because it's not just like you can just have the surgery and then all of a sudden you're training long miles. It's a lot of physical therapy, a lot of recovery, healing, pushing yourself, getting sore again, you know, all that stuff. 

That's pretty super awesome. So on that note, why the Big Lonely? Tell me a little bit about it because I wasn't even aware of it until you guys mentioned something. 

Deann:

I've actually never  heard of it either until you [Aliza] brought it up.

Karey:

Okay. So tell me a little bit about how you found this [race] and why.  

Aliza: 

Well, I recently started spending half my time in Bend. It's one of my favorite places. I love it. It's a beautiful area, amazing scenery, a very active area, but also it's a lot of mountain biking and gravel riding. And I actually had a friend of mine who did this race in 2020, the first year that they had it.

His name is Evan Deutsch. He's an ultra  Bikepacker who's done the tour divide. He's had many races. He's kind of crazy actually, but, so I kind of first heard about it from him. And then they came out with a documentary the second year they did it. And it just combined a lot of areas that I thought were beautiful riding areas, very close to the heart of Bend. I've always been interested in doing a bikepacking race, so this was just a good intro to bikepacking. It's only 350 miles. The winners do it in like, 33 hours. So in my mind, I was thinking like, three days would be a good goal and I was lucky enough to convince my Total Knee for Speed friend Deann into doing it with me so I wouldn't have to do it by myself.

So another reason why it's a good entry bike packing race is because there is a duo category. [It’s] definitely kind of unique in that way. I'm sure there are a couple more like that, but it definitely made the decision to do it a lot easier, because, I'm sure we'll talk about this as we go along, but the mental game was 95 percent of it.

So, having somebody to keep you moving, and also in Aliza’s case, I gave her lots of excuses to take a rest that she didn't want to have to call for herself. But the race itself, just as a descriptor, goes in a big circle around this town of Bend and it's 350 miles with what is it? 26, 000 feet?

Aliza: 

I think it's 27,000 feet elevation gain this year. 

Deann: 

Yeah, it goes over three mountain passes, which actually kind of shake out pretty nicely to where you're doing it in the three day plan, like we did. You get to do one mountain every day, mostly gravel roads, but there's also a little bit of pavement and several trails, too.

I think there were at least three areas where you were on single track. 

Aliza: 

I think it was 20 percent single track, um, 30 percent road and 50 percent gravel. 

Deann:

 That sounds right.  It's a good little mix of things.

People had, like, gravel bikes. I think one guy had, like, 43s. And then, you know, there also was a full suspension mountain bike in there, so...

Karey:

And you guys... You both rode...hardtails?  Or what did you ride? 

Deann and Aliza: 

Yeah, we converted our hardtails to fully rigid bikes. 

Karey:

Would you pick the same bike again? 

Deann: 

I would. I'd put suspension on. 

Karey:

Oh, for real? 

Deann: 

Yeah. 

Karey: Oh, okay. Okay. And now is that just because of your hands? Or is that just overall control of the bike?

Deann: 

I think both of us were having hand problems by the third day, but also the last 45 miles was a fairly technical trail that we rode in the middle of the night and  it was not an appropriate trail for a rigid bike. So, I mean, we survived, but I just can't imagine how a cross bike did that.

Karey: 

So, at that point, it's like, you have to decide. Even if you have a heavier bike, how much time are you really losing because you don't feel comfortable on the terrain? You know what I mean? Even though it's lighter by X amount, like 70% of the race, if you're losing that much time on a technical trail, then it can be worth [the heavier, more comfortable bike]. 

You know, the mixed terrain courses are difficult in that sense.

Deann:

I think I would have been a lot more pleased with my rigid bike, had there not been about 40 miles of extreme washboard on the last day as well. That's hard to predict. It's just the condition of the road and whether it's been graded recently or anything.

It was just like, so rough to hit that after already riding 250 miles. So if that had been in better condition, I don't know if I would have regretted my rigid fork. We did a shakedown bike packing trip in the spring on the Oregon Outback. Actually, the Big Lonely kind of does a section of the Oregon Outback in reverse.

Aliza: 

I also had that same experience with my hands because of the rough roads. I mean, yeah, it's hard to say.

Karey:

 So then you talked about doing the Oregon Outback as preparation. Tell me a little bit about how you each prepared either solo or together. Like, what training you did because I know you each were a little bit different in what you're able to do.

Aliza:

I had this lofty goal of doing this ride in three days.  And so that was essentially over a hundred miles a day and about 10, 000 feet of elevation gain a day. Doing that just for one day.  It seemed kind of impossible, actually, when I started training, it just seemed like infallible that I'd be able to get there.

So we also decided to do the High Cascade 100 mile mountain biking race as a kind of a good thing to train for and get that 100 miles and 10,000 feet elevation gain in a day's experience. I started working with a coach too, to kind of make sure I had a smart training plan and just the biggest goal of not getting injured in the process of training.

So I did a lot of trainer workouts, you know interval training, which was kind of new for me as well. Deanna and I did a lot of riding together. We did a couple bike packing trips together, too to prepare and kind of shake things out on our bikes. I did one with you in the spring in Arizona.  That was the start of my training.

You were at the tail end of your training. So it definitely kicked my butt, but it's good, in general when I'm training for things like this, I try to do these like heinous rides that are just so hard that, you know, you do. And then you, when you're actually in the moment of completing whatever it is, you can think back on that and be like, well, I did that, and that was so hard, so I can do this.  And then, you know, also trying out different things, nutrition wise. I don't think I ever totally figured that out. It was still a challenge. I know Deann and I both had trouble eating day three, day two and three kind of started getting pretty tough.

Karey:

Ah, I got ya. Let's return to that, ‘cause I'm all about the food. So Deann, tell me a little bit more about your training compared to Aliza’s.

Deann:

So, a lot of this just has to do with our careers. Aliza works in the medical profession, so she has blocks where she's working, but then she has blocks that are off.

When Aliza convinced me to do this,basically we had a whole year to get ready. And so I spent a little bit of time in the winter nerding out and doing a bunch of research and I got Kurt Reifschneider's great little PDF that he has for sale that has a ton of good information in it.

And I use that to create a detailed training plan for myself. That was like, 6 months long and that plan lasted about a month. Before I completely fell off that because not only do I work too much, but we also moved in April, like bought a house and moved. So I felt constantly like I was behind on training.

And so I would kill myself on weekends and I did a lot of hundred mile rides and a lot of seven and eight hour training sessions where I just try to like cram all of my training into one weekend, which I know is a terrible way of training. But.  It was just really hard for me to fit in otherwise.

And so I was really concerned going into this that I was under trained. But I think, actually in the end, I think it was fine. I think I was in plenty, plenty good shape. I mean, we did the Oregon Outback in May, and that was a similar distance, but over five days instead of three days, I guess. And then, High Cascades, like Aliza said, and then...just a bunch of really big, dumb rides, including that really big weekend where we did 160 miles two weeks before the race, where it's kind of the peak of just distance in a short time, I guess. 

That's one of the biggest things I think can be a barrier to people trying something like this.

Most of us don't live lives where we can just ride whenever and how much we want, right? So it's like balancing life and work and family and obligations and stuff like that. 

Karey:

So with the time that you did have and the lifestyles that you have, do you both feel like overall you ended up with what you'd hoped for or was there anything you've changed given what you know now?

Deann:

Yeah, I think it worked out well. My legs were not the limiting factor. I live in a small town. I don't have easy access to a high quality bike fitter. That probably could have helped me somewhat with my hands, but I don't know. I mean, it didn't really get bad until 250 miles in. So it's really hard to simulate that without having done the race already. 

Aliza:

Yeah,  I did have a bike fitter and I still had the same problem. I really geeked out. I got inner bar ends. I got different grips. I got different handlebars and I brought them all to the bike fitter, and he helped me out the best he could. But he was even like, you know, on a fully rigid bike on a really bumpy road, [there’s] only so much he can do.

Karey:

I feel like it's also one of those, you know…I've talked to a few ultra endurance riders, and we know a few people who do these crazy things. I think it's very seldom, if ever, when you're really pushing yourself like this, that there won't be some discomfort. I think it's just minimizing that. I think it's just like one of the things that happens.

I mean, when we were watching Heather Jackson in the Javelina 100 race [in 2022], and she takes her shoes off and [she had huge] blisters. She couldn't even walk and she finished and she finished well, you know what I mean? And it's so crazy. It's like one of the things that's not really mentioned that you're doing this. So maybe you train your butt off and your aerobic fitness is fine, but it's so hard on your body.

Deann:

That third day when we had a washboard rough road, you know, it bothered my hands, but I didn't really think about it too much. And it wasn't until we decided to sleep for a couple hours on the side of the trail that when I lay down and tried to sleep, my hands were just hurting so much.  I didn't realize it until I had stopped and then we got up and started going the next day.

And again, I didn't realize it until we finally finished how messed up my hands were. Cause you're just in it and you're focused and you just kind of do it. I think I understand now why so many of these bikepack racers use aero bars, because it gives your hands a break. 

Karey:

Yeah, and I've thought about that. 

Deann:

Like, if I could have fit those on my bike somehow, should I have used them?  They're also kind of hard to use when the washboard is really bad. 

Karey:

Yeah. Well, I feel like, if it eliminates some of the time that you're not on your bars for other parts that are a little bit more smooth, then maybe it won't hurt as bad when you're on the washboard in your regular bars. I mean, there are a lot of people on these long rides that use the aero bars and I've never put them on and a lot of people swear [by them]. I don't know.  

Deann: 

After the training, the body parts that I was most worried about were my back and my knees. I'd had some IT band tightness that had given me some knee pain, and then I'd had quite a bit of pretty bad low back pain on the super long rides.

And even when Aliza and I did the 108 mile stretch, which was essentially our day two, there's like a 25 mile climb in there. And I had to keep stopping and stretching and trying to get my back to loosen up. But in the race, my back never hurt, my legs, my knees did not hurt. So things I was really concerned about just didn't materialize and new things appeared that I had no idea.

Karey:

 All right, like, start of the race. How are you guys feeling? Where'd you guys stay the night before? What time did the race start? Were there porta-potties at the start of the race?

Deann:

There were not! There were not! 

Aliza:

Let's talk about the start of the race, shall we?  Well, it was a 6 a.m. start, and [we had to] be there at 5 a. m. to check in. He required that you have some kind of shelter, you have a sleeping bag, filter, things like that. And initially the start was going to be at a trailhead that had pit toilets, but decided to do it more in town at a bike shop. But the email said, “but by the way, there'll be no access to a bathroom at the start,” which is, I think, every endurance athlete's nightmare. 

Aliza:

Especially the Jewish one with the nervous Jewish gut!  Immediately we arrive, of course, like we arrive and I immediately have to shit. We have 45 minutes to go and I'm not going to bike three miles to the pit toilet and come back. So, I'm just waiting and just suffering. And so I'm thinking, “Oh crap,” (literally),  “it's gonna be this long line for the pit toilet when we get there in three miles.”

Deann:

We thought everybody has this problem, right? Like, everyone is going to need to go straight to the toilet.  

Aliza:

So the race starts and it's supposed to be a neutral start. And there was nothing neutral about it. It was full gas at the start. And we're all in single file immediately on single track. We ride the three miles and finally get to the pit toilet and no one is waiting for the bathroom.

They all just keep going. And I was like, “all right, that was the race.”

Deann:

We never saw them again.  

Aliza:

I felt much better, and then we started our race and it was just us the rest of the time. 

Deann:

Yeah. And because the neutral start was so fast, I was already sweating by the time we got there. I had to strip all my clothes off and get into my shorts, even though it was super cold out. 

So everybody just kept going and we stopped for maybe 10 minutes to do all of this. And then people started texting us saying like, why isn't your dot moving when everybody else is down the trail? We're in the shitter.

You know what? Race your own race. So,  because you know it's impossible to race when you gotta use the shitter.

I'll tell you what, , 

Aliza: 

Well, I'll say that was one of our big goals for this race: Race your own race and shit regularly. I think we accomplish those things….

Karey:

….because sometimes that's an issue! Sometimes it's the other way around. You don’t get to do that until like day three. So…

Deann:

…I took eight craps over three days. 

Karey:

Good job!

Aliza:

That's what you do when you eat so much food. 

Karey:

Yeah. When you have poop fright though, or your body's like, what are you doing to me? Then sometimes it doesn't happen that way. 

Deann:

 Yep.  

Aliza:

That's how the start of the race happened.So we felt much lighter. Then we started at Phil’s Trail and started on a 20 mile all uphill single track section of the race.

And it actually is a beautiful trail. It's an awesome trail in Bend. It went up Bench Trail to Pine Drops to Skyliner, and then to North Fork, which is just an awesome trail that goes alongside Tumalo Falls. We caught Cassidy, one of the other women in the race. She was the only solo female that did the race!

We caught a couple guys, we caught the other couple, and we kind of leap frogged them a little bit because we were riding our own race and going our own pace and we stopped when we needed to. But yeah, it was hard, you know, steep in sections, but it was a lovely beginning of the race. It was actually a really nice trail. 

Deann:

One of our strategies too, is to eat as much as we could in restaurants, which helped us to kind of break things up in our own minds too. Like, we just had to get to Sisters, which was 50 miles.  So once we got over that first initial climb, then it's still a really beautiful area that just kind of winds through the high Alpine Cascades and then drops down into Sisters where we had the world's greatest vegan bowl at a food cart. And we just kind of took our time too. There were definitely people who just got something as fast as possible and kept rolling. We also knew that we were planning to sleep in a hotel in Madras that night, so there was no reason for us to be going any faster than we needed to just to get there with enough time to eat.

We ended up doing laundry and like showering and, and getting comfortable, so that helped mentally (and to get enough rest).  

Karey:

Yeah, I mean, there are multiple ways to race a race, you know what I mean? I feel like you’ve got to do what is good for you because, in the end, if your lack of sleep or lack of nutrition increases risk of injury especially if it's not for you. I've only done one multi day endurance race. I've never tried to only have one hour of sleep or not sleeping at all. We were definitely on like three to four hours of sleep, maybe, and that was enough for me to be like, I don't know that I could even function [with less sleep]. It amazes me when people can do that. 

Aliza:

 I think our number one goal was finishing this.

And you know, if you look at the results, over 50% of people dropped out. I think there were only 13 finishers. And there were 31 people who started the race. So that was our goal. But, you know, we're still doing big days and it's still pushing us and pushing our limits. Also, we didn't know how we were going to feel after riding a hundred miles and 6,600 feet of elevation on day one, and then going to 108 miles and 10,000 feet of elevation on day two.

And it definitely was hard. Like, we both woke up day two early and started riding and it was a little bit of a struggle-bus to get going. We were pretty tired and we knew how big that day was gonna be. But again, we knew we were staying in a hotel. Our biggest goal too was to make it before it got dark because there was a highway section that was a little sketchy that we wanted to try to beat the sun set, which we didn't. 

Okay, it was close, but again, it was just like running a race and you know, my strategy…I shared it with Karey…my gay agenda….it's just my notepad, but I broke the race up into, I think it was 11 parts. I was just completing one section at a time. I wasn't trying to think too far past that. 

Deann:

And when we were making our initial race plan too, we were looking at the mileage and thinking, okay, so you know, we could do 120 a day and split it up evenly and camp.

So mile 120 was pretty close to this little ghost town called Ashwood. Then mile 240 was in the middle of nowhere and then we'd have to keep going after that the next morning. So, when you looked at the places that you could stop for water and food it actually still kind of ended up where the day two should end somewhere near the town of Prineville, which was where we had a hotel anyway. So, we could have made those first two days bigger, but it would have actually complicated the logistics more. And we ended up sleeping on the ground instead of in a tent. Staying in a hotel just made it much more likely that I was gonna actually get to rest. 

And I think that in the end, having two nights of complete rest in hotels did not slow us down at all.  over if we had tried to push through and do longer days. 

Karey:

Well, you also have to consider if you're camping, you've got to spend the energy and the time. If you set up your tent or your shelter, you have to unroll your sleeping bag, and that takes time and a lot of energy. So you can spend that time or energy just checking into a hotel and getting a shower and feeling good and then you can just get up and go in the morning. You don't have to worry about really picking all that stuff up, which is great.

Aliza:

Yeah, right. And it actually was pretty cold at night too. So we just brought our rain fly and footprint and poles. And we brought just a skeleton and the one night we did camp and sleep for a couple hours, the wind just kind of went right under it. So, teah, I think it would have been hard to sleep for sure.

Karey:

Totally…I'm gonna skip ahead a little bit, but the suffering and the mental part of it, we'll talk about physicality a little bit too, but, how did you guys work together? I mentioned when we started this whole thing that we have adventured a lot together and have been to a lot of deep, dark places together. Were there any squabbles? Was there any drama? Spill the tea!

Deann:

We had no drama. Zero. Zero.

Aliza:

 And we're not lying!  I mean, we could both agree. This is why we chose each other.

Karey:

 Awww. 

Aliza:

 Yeah. No, there's zero drama. We work together really well. I think that, in all the riding that we did in preparation, there were always days where I was suffering more than Deann or Deann was suffering more than me.

And it just seemed like whenever that's the case, the one that's feeling a little stronger and supports the other person, however they can. And that definitely was the case for this as well. 

Deann:

There are a lot of times it seems like as a duo or a team, you're kind of operating at your lowest  average, because whoever's the slowest is slowing the other down at any given time, which can be frustrating, I guess, if you're the one who's feeling good and the other person's not.

But, I don't know. We just never actually had any of those moments where either of us was just like, “Oh, why can't we just keep going?” There were a few moments toward the end, like when I told Aliza, “I have to rest.” A hundred and five miles in on day three and we had 40 miles to go and there was a climb and I've been low on water all day and rationing and I'd gotten behind. Both of us were having stomach issues and not able to get enough calories down. 

And I just said, like, “I have to stop now.” And Aliza did not push me in any way. She wasn't like, “well, what if we went a little farther?” It was just like, “okay, great. Let's stop.” We just stopped there.  I think, just honoring the other person's needs, because the reality is that you can't force anybody to suddenly feel better.

So you might as well just give them what they need. And that's what's going to help the team in the end. Yeah.  

Aliza:

And that's just it. We weren't doing this as individuals. We were doing it as a team and you have to work together in every possible way in order for it to work out in the end, because, you know, it's not just about physical endurance, but it's also about emotional maturity and working well together, communicating well together and knowing each other's needs and know each other's boundaries.

Deann:

There's a lot that goes into it. I think we're also both pretty quiet riders. Like,there's not a lot of chit chat while we're out pedaling. Aliza listens to books. I tried at one point and I can't do it. I have to like... 

Karey:

…Just be with yourself.

Deann:

 Yeah. I'm just with myself.

Karey:

Mm-Hmm. 

Deann: 

But,  I think that's the thing. Like, if one person needs to have a conversation to keep their spirits up or something and the other isn't feeling that, that can be a problem. So I think we vibe on that level as well. 

Karey:

So you would rate each other a 10 out of 10 adventure buddy?

Aliza:

Yes. 10 out 10.

Deann:

 I think that we're both kind of all-around riders. Like, neither of us is like a climber and really good at climbing or something where we're kind of evenly matched in different areas. But  because we're fairly well matched in most areas that works out too. 

Karey:

That's super awesome!  I think it can be hard to find good adventure buddies and it's trying to figure out what makes a trip good. You know, I think we've all had experiences adventuring with either a huge group or like a couple of people and there's just like a wrench in the wheel. And sometimes while you're in it, it's so hard to figure out like, “Why am I still in this dark place?” And not that I’m blaming other people for my own dark places, but, you know, some trips you just kind of get in the middle of it and you’re like, “Why is this just not clicking?”

I feel super lucky and we still adventure together.  And even though we’re thousands of miles apart, when we get together, we know how each other tick. And maybe that just comes from the many miles and years of experience that we have together, but like you said, I think it's also our approach and mental attitude and strengths that complement each other a lot. It's the best thing ever!

Let's talk about physical pain! Deann, you said your back and your knee were better than you thought it would be. Probably because you paid really good attention to it leading up?  Aliza, your knee was okay? 

Aliza:

 Until the very end. I think with like, 20 miles to go, I started having some knee pain. That was just a hard stretch. So our last day, kind of finishing our recap, was we were trying to do the last 150 miles in one go.

The washboard section was just so much slower and there was this awful headwind. It was just so much slower than we had thought it was gonna be and we were trying to make it up to Palina before sunset and it didn't happen. So we ended up basically doing that last 150 miles, but we did stop to sleep for about two hours during that time.

So I think that stretch definitely kind of wore out my knee a little bit, but it feels fine now. 

Karey:

Yeah. So, okay, you guys have mentioned your hands.What is the verdict on the hands? Deann is wearing a brace right now. 

Deann:

I have to wear a brace for at least the next two weeks because I have three numb fingers associated with my carpal tunnel.

I've learned a lot about carpal tunnel. Turns out that it's not painful, actually. It's just numb. So my, my thumb, first finger, and middle finger. are all completely numb and they tingle a lot, which is really uncomfortable. It's definitely affecting my ability to get back to work too. I have to take a lot of breaks.

I can't just work for eight hours. I have to start and stop and change modalities. And since I'm a graphic designer,I'm kind of switching back and forth between my mouse, my trackpad, and my Apple pencil.

Karey:

Oh, I was going to say, is it your right hand? 

Deann:

Yeah. 

Karey:

So you have to make…oh my gosh…

Deann:

Which I don't think is an accident. I think that because that's the hand that I use for those other activities, it was maybe more susceptible to injury. 

Aliza:

Well, I'll say my hand that's affected is actually my non-dominant hand. It's my left hand. 

Karey:

And [Aliza], are you dealing with the same symptoms or like, what are you dealing with?

Aliza:

Yeah, I had numbness in the three fingers and then instead of numb, I'm not having numbness in my thumb and index finger, but I'm having weakness where I have very low fine motor control in my hand. And I've seen my chiropractor about it. I haven't seen a doctor about it. So I'm doing some nerve glides.

My first day back at work was Monday, which is a week after we finished the race. I'm a nurse anesthetist. I work in the operating room. I was in a craniotomy surgery. So brain surgery,  pulling off a little thing like that. So I spiked a new bag of fluid and I just had such poor motor control that it fell out of my hand onto the sterile field.

During brain surgery, I was so embarrassed and luckily they were almost done closing. if that was in the middle of brain surgery, that would have been so bad. So now I have to be very intentional about when I use it.  Very careful.  

Deann:

My doctor said that when it's your last two fingers, your ring finger and your pinky, it's   handlebar palsy. And it's a known thing with cyclists, apparently, which I didn’t know. I feel like I've never heard of it before. 

Karey:

Yeah… Interesting...I mean, I definitely got it on my gravel bike in RAAZ. Like, not as bad as you guys, but I think probably if we would have ended up finishing, I think it would have gotten that bad.

I've been fit on the bike and we fit to where it was a more of a relaxed touring fit, but not super, super aggressive and same thing, like nervy stuff going through. It took quite a while to get feeling back and stuff. I didn't have to wear a brace or anything.

Deann:

Maybe we should be talking about this more in the cycling world, that a lot of our hands are being destroyed. 

If you are a hand expert,  doctor, call me! What other physical ailments? … You guys were able to do laundry, right? 

Deann:

Yep. 

Karey:

Okay, so that's lucky because like, I know a lot of the chafing is from like, reusing sweaty, dirty gear, right?

Aliza:

Oh, yeah, war zone down there…

Karey:

…But still, spending how long in your chamois,  you know what I mean? 75 hours. 

Aliza:

Yeah.

Deann:

Yeah. 

Aliza:

What we did, when we slept for two hours on the side of the trail, we didn't even take our chamois off. We slept in our chamois.

Deann:

So that was to note, Aliza lost a chamois on the trip. She left it in the hotel room. So luckily  [we got to] stay in a hotel, because that meant she was down to just one, but we could wash it.

My, my problems were not sores, they were, it was more bruising.  

Karey:

Okay. 

Deann: And then since then, the skin has been peeling off down there a lot. 

Karey:

Yeah.

Aliza:

Oh yeah. Mine too. Yeah. 

Deann:

You had a special prescription cream, didn't you? 

Aliza:

Oh yeah, I had a butt kit. I got Clindamycin lotion. That I applied after everything was clean. I applied it every night and it kind of helped keep things dry, things out, heal anything that was maybe brewing down there, That and bag balm, and then chamois cream. 

Deann: 

Now, regarding long days in the saddle, did you guys have any issues with any of this kind of stuff on your longer shakedown rides or anything? Again, this is one of those things where I feel like it's inevitable. Like, I've never had a multi day, long adventure ride with, like, absolutely no undercarriage problems. Like, whether [it’s] the... chafing, bruising. 

Deann:

 Karey, you have a special undercarriage. 

Karey:

I do have a special undercarriage! But I think I have it almost figured out! 

Deann:

When we rode the Outback, we had some issues. I think Aliza, you seemed like you were a little bit better. We also had a third friend who was along on that, and both me and that person ended up with some saddle sore issues. 

Karey:

Yeah. 

Deann: And I changed my saddle out after that.

Karey:

Oh, okay. Yeah, so there are  lesser horrible ways to suffer with undercarriage. The ideal would be to not have anything, but I have yet to hear of a person that...  

Aliza:

…I think that it's just managing it and then, you know, the benefit helped a lot.

Deann:

I got, you know, a really expensive Velocio chamois, which definitely makes a difference too.  

Aliza:

And yeah, it's just making sure everything's clean at night and you start clean the next day.   I never did have any open saddle sores. There's more just like raw, it's kind of raw feeling just because of the  hours in the saddle., and I think that's probably avoidable.

Karey:

Ah yes… the inevitable saddle sore conundrum.